Join us for a critical conversation with Topeka Police Department's Major Mike Cross, a 23-year veteran with profound insights into community and law enforcement collaboration. Our discussion paints a vivid picture of the interplay between local ordinances, unsheltered populations, and the role of the police in addressing these societal challenges. This episode peels back the layers of complexity surrounding homelessness, exploring the delicate balance of supporting individual rights while maintaining residential areas. We examine the effectiveness of ordinances in handling unauthorized camping and panhandling, the implications for businesses and residents, and the importance of compassion in enforcement. As we navigate the intricacies of community advocacy, we illuminate the varied perspectives on homelessness, highlighting the efforts of community organizations to advocate for our city's most vulnerable.
To learn more about TRM Ministries: Click Here!
To support TRM, Click Here!
Join us for a critical conversation with Topeka Police Department's Major Mike Cross, a 23-year veteran with profound insights into community and law enforcement collaboration. Our discussion paints a vivid picture of the interplay between local ordinances, unsheltered populations, and the role of the police in addressing these societal challenges. This episode peels back the layers of complexity surrounding homelessness, exploring the delicate balance of supporting individual rights while maintaining residential areas. We examine the effectiveness of ordinances in handling unauthorized camping and panhandling, the implications for businesses and residents, and the importance of compassion in enforcement. As we navigate the intricacies of community advocacy, we illuminate the varied perspectives on homelessness, highlighting the efforts of community organizations to advocate for our city's most vulnerable.
To learn more about TRM Ministries: Click Here!
To support TRM, Click Here!
Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you, lord, for this time. Lord and this day. God, thank you for our special guest today. And Lord, just community involvement and partnership and Lord, just all the work that you're doing, god, through these organizations and these relationships. God, you're so good to us and we love you and just thank you for this time and pray that it would be a blessing to our listeners. Father, in your holy name, we pray Amen. Holy name, we pray Amen.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody, you're listening to Our Community, our Mission, a podcast of the Topeka Rescue Mission here on Thursday, april 18th of 2024, episode 218. Hello, lamanda Broyles. Hello, that was kind of a mouthful for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm telling you, what do you do here? That's okay, that's fine, that's all right, hey kid Executive director. Yeah, what do you do here? That's okay, that's fine, that's all right, hey kid.
Speaker 2:Executive director. Yeah, you've been on podcasts a couple of times, so anyway, lamanda, we have a special guest today that we're just going to jump right into A very important issue in our community. But we have some commonality with this guy. Yeah, we do, we do, yeah, in our childhoods don't we kids? And that a commonality is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, both of us had fathers who were police officers, that's right.
Speaker 2:So we have a great respect for police officers everywhere, me in particular, especially with Topeka Police Department, because my dad was here and your dad was down in Arkansas.
Speaker 3:Yes, so on the force there, do you know, though I don't know if I've been able to tell you, but they have asked me to speak at the academy, graduation in May and I think my dad is going to be able to come up and attend it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we're looking forward to it. How cool is that? Well, we have a great relationship with our law enforcement in the community. Yes.
Speaker 2:Not just because both of our fathers weren't police force work but because of the unique opportunity that we have to work hand in hand to help some of the most vulnerable, to provide community safety and stabilization. And Topeka Rescue Mission, now 71 years old, has been just blessed to have a really great relationship with our city and our county and our state police and all the federal folks that come around sometimes and those kind of things. And that's not the way it is everywhere, but it is here, and so we are privileged today to have Major Michael Cross with us today. Mike, welcome to our community, our mission.
Speaker 2:Hey, barry, thank you, and you and I have known each other for a few years and you and I were just talking. I've seen you in very tense situations before, with the gifts and skills that you have of helping people to calm down and avoid a lot of things. So, Mike, when did you start on TPD?
Speaker 5:So I joined the Topeka Police Department back in 2001. So, 23 years if I do the math right. And then, prior to that, I was in the US Army for five years, where I did military police work.
Speaker 2:Okay, and also you're married to a law enforcement officer.
Speaker 5:Yep, my wife is also a commander over at the police department, and we just passed our 18th anniversary.
Speaker 3:Oh, congratulations.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Well, I know Jennifer very well. I've worked with her a lot in different things. She's a rock star, like you are as well. So, in your position as major, what does that look like within the Topeka Police Department? What are you over supervising? So at the police?
Speaker 5:department we have four bureau chiefs and I'm the bureau chief over what's called our community outreach bureau. We have Property Maintenance Unit, which is more commonly known as Code Enforcement, animal Control. We have Motorcycle Unit, traffic Unit, community Policing. Aside from that, we have a couple of side things that we have. We have our Accident Reconstruction Unit, which are the units who come out and reconstruct crashes after the fact try to piece it back together and figure out what happened.
Speaker 5:And part of that and what we're here to talk about today that we do is our behavioral health unit, which is our officers whose primary role in the community is being law enforcement officers who can kind of bridge the gap to the mental health needs of the community, and one of those officers specific assignments includes outreach to the homeless and needs of the community, and one of those officer-specific assignments includes outreach to the homeless and unsheltered community.
Speaker 2:Well, that's quite a bit of stuff you can do there.
Speaker 5:It's a lot. Every time I have to say it, I have to rethink, make sure I don't forget anybody.
Speaker 2:You could have done that. Like Miranda writes, I'm going to read these here I know You've got them down.
Speaker 3:My eyes kept getting bigger and bigger. I'm like oh, my goodness, what else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, in particular, what's a topic table topic for a lot of people around the country right now is the increase of the unsheltered people, unhoused, unsheltered, especially post-pandemic that we have seen here in Topeka as well. I think, as we've talked on our community, our mission before, is that a lot of changes occurred even in Topeka Rescue Mission in regards to the number of people that we could shelter when the pandemic arrived and we began to have communications with health officials completely from local Shawnee County, kdhe all the way to the CDC, pretty much saying here's what you have to do different. And that meant we had to become smaller in regards to the number of people could be sheltered, which created some positive programs out of that. But also we saw and knew we were going to have more unsheltered come and so it's a problem in the United States, problem in Kansas, even small communities, but a problem here in our community as well, of people who are really struggling and a community who's struggling to know what to do.
Speaker 2:So I know, lamanda, you've been on the front lines of this, representing TRM, and also with the city ideation team, the innovation, whatever they're called, with the consultant and that's getting closer to having some discovery on that, they'll be presented to the city council and leading Topeka Rescue Mission. And so we do have an increase of people who have been unsheltered and the city council here a number of months ago decided that they were going to create some ordinances, not the first time. There had been other ordinances before in regards to panhandling issues or unauthorized camping in certain areas, and those have come and go over the years. Some of them are more reactionary due to a particular situation, like a bridge catching on fire back in 2018, I believe, and those kind of things, but this became much larger, major.
Speaker 2:Could you kind of unpack what these ordinances at this point are designed to do and then maybe, what maybe is coming as far as you know, and then we'll kind of talk about some of the ramifications of what's happened here.
Speaker 5:Sure, let's talk about some of the past ordinance that existed, which included the downtown, specifically the downtown kind of retail business district, as well as the NOTO or North Topeka Retail Business District, and those have existed for numerous years. Basically, they prohibit, within a set boundary basically of those districts that you can't camp within those locations, and it was also expanded after the inception of those to include, like any business doorway in the city of Topeka and basically what that means is you can't you know you can't go out to the Wanamaker on Walmart when they're closed and camp in their doorway because maybe there's a shelter overhead.
Speaker 5:It might be a place that seems like a good place to go when the weather's bad, but it prohibits that and the purpose of those uh existing is to protect the businesses, um, and make sure that you know they're not losing customers or their employees aren't feeling safe coming and going because they've got somebody you know with their sleeping bag laid out on the front porch, basically when they arrive in the morning. And then, more recently, we've added the public property camping ordinance, which is the most recent one, which just came into play in November.
Speaker 2:And we say public property. I think some people know what that means and some don't. So what is public property?
Speaker 5:So the best way to describe would be public property, would be pieces of property that are owned by either the city of Topeka, the state of Kansas or, in some cases, Shawnee County does own some properties too.
Speaker 2:So can the city council of Topeka say that people cannot be on public property if it's on county grounds or state grounds without working with both of those entities, or because it's within the city limits? It's covered, mike Barrett.
Speaker 5:Because within the city limits you can use the terminology public property and really hit any of those, and that could go on to include even like a state sponsored college.
Speaker 2:We don't have any right now, but if there was a satellite campus, something like that would fit too, and so that's opposed to private property, so somebody's backyard or some business parking lot like Walmart or whatever that's private.
Speaker 5:That's private property. The new ordinance does cover that a little bit too. I think their intention was set out to handle public property, but they also reached out and touched on the private property and that's probably the easiest one to discuss and kind of work through here and kind of put it behind us. But the private property. The camping ordinance allows camping up to 10 days on private property but it specifies that it has to be by the owner of record, which creates some issue because you know if.
Speaker 5:I rent a house from Barry. I can't set my tent up and camp in the backyard with the Boy Scout troop for the weekend.
Speaker 2:So the owner of record could be not even Topeka Kansas. They could be living in California, have a rental here, so they're the ones that have to issue permission.
Speaker 5:Correct Is that 10 days per year, it says 10 days per six months For six months, so it would be 20 days in a year and, to be honest, we haven't really faced any of these we've had to deal with yet and I think if we did and it were to be an issue, I feel like those are probably an easier solution to look at through like our property maintenance unit inspectors as maybe a sanitation or a housing violation.
Speaker 2:So some people have said, well, hey, we can't have our kids come over and camp out in the backyard anymore. Talk about that a minute.
Speaker 5:Yeah, no, the reality is they can Ten days maximum.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ten days I mean you can't put the kids outside all summer. We're getting to that time of year. So sorry folks, You're going to have to have the kids inside after about 10 days.
Speaker 5:But there are groups I mean there are Boy Scouts, girl Scouts, religious-affiliated organizations that do like youth-based campouts and stuff and I think the intention of the ordinance in that part was to give them room where if they want to do a camp, they can do it.
Speaker 2:So if somebody perchance and I'm going to kind of play the devil's advocate here, so to speak per chance, and I'm going to kind of play the devil's advocate here, so to speak but if somebody really felt like this was a violation of their property rights, how do you explain that to them? Why are you coming and telling me I can't camp out in my backyard more than 10 days every six months?
Speaker 5:You know, barry, I would just explain it as that's. You know, some of these rules exist to keep and maintain peace and that's established to kind of keep residential areas residential, I think was the intention.
Speaker 2:You know, not to be mean, not to say you can't, you know, have the kids camp outside or you know, if you want a break from your spouse, you can't camp out for a couple of weeks. Or maybe your spouse wants a break from you and put you out there.
Speaker 2:So that'd be a great way for the guy to get back in the house. You know, call him up, say, hey, you know what, I've got my 10 days, help me out here, and that's when he may be finding a motel. So basically, again, you know, when we hear about these things, you know when we think about especially this Western culture of independence, we tend to react to things like that, and there's been some reaction to that they can't tell me what I can do on my own property. And there's been some reaction to that To they can't tell me what I can do on my own property. But in reality, there's a lot of things you can and can't do on your own property in a municipality, which this is one of those that's intended to protect Right, correct, yeah, protect people from not having that kind of a guideline. So we're talking about the simpler one here the private property. So what if somebody goes past that? They're going to go to jail. They're going to have to pay a million dollars. What's the penalty?
Speaker 5:for that. We haven't reached that point yet. It would be a very low misdemeanor. It would be similar to criminal trespassing. So I don't think we Be a citation Be a citation.
Speaker 2:Go for a judge that says don't do that anymore. And yeah, because you know there's going to be some people that are going to test it at some point. Back to the other piece that this originally like a no-toe downtown business area doorways. Has there been many issues with that since the ordinances were passed of people needing to be moved out, or did the word kind of get around? You can't be in a doorway of a business.
Speaker 5:Word gets around and we tend to find, with the enforcement aspect of it, that simply all we have to do is kind of you know, like you know, go over and nudge them and be like, hey, listen, you can't camp in this area. It's specifically prohibited by ordinance, it's a downtown or it's no-to, and people are pretty understanding of it. We've had to issue a few citations over the years, but not more than a handful each year.
Speaker 5:So that one really isn't the biggest issue we face when it comes to homelessness in our community, Right? So what is say biggest issue? But I think the reason it seems like the biggest issue is we didn't have any ordinances prohibiting it or preventing it and it kind of was allowed to grow to a point of. To those on the side of wanting to, to provide and be advocates for the homeless, they thought it was kind of a right that that these people could camp and live in these public spaces. Public spaces and to those who you know may travel through there or maybe aren't as supportive of that homeless lifestyle, what they're seeing is, you know, a lot of rubbish.
Speaker 5:Growing up, a lot of trash collecting, a lot of, you know, makeshift structures being built, and so it kind of created a almost like a, you know, a battlefront with two sides of it. There's a side for and a side against.
Speaker 2:So, Lamanda, you're an advocate for the homeless. Talk about the position that you take as well as the rescue mission. That's not either or.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, before I dive into that, I do appreciate Major Cross being here because he and I, I would consider, are good partners and I, I would consider our good partners. I trust him but we can't always agree on everything. But we are very respectful and we are honest. I mean we're just true partners, both trying to do the right thing, and that takes a lot of grace. I know I'm not always his favorite person and sometimes I'm frustrated with what he has to do.
Speaker 3:But I love him, I care for him, same thing with Captain Stewart and Sergeant Rose, and I think they think that about me. They know I'm the same whether I'm here or at church or being a mom, like we see that, and so thank you for being able to be here and to talk about it. And so you know I think the here and to talk about it, and so you know I think the. If I can start out with a frustration, I think my frustration is that TRM is not one or the other. So, in regards to the ordinance, we have never said any type of public statement that ordinances are always bad and that we shouldn't be doing this. What we've asked is that, if we were going to move towards an ordinance, let's be looking at all of the factors, let's do it onto a timeline that makes sense, so that we can do it with a humanity focus, but then also doing it where it's a time of, where we have correct funding and where we have correct options and things like that. And so my frustration is not necessarily that we have an ordinance. It's been how it's come about, but it's one of those things that all of us, as partners, care for each other. We care for our community, and so we're trying, in my opinion, to make lemonade out of lemons and the lemonade is just really tart but that we've all worked together to try to be as respectful of the governing body and the decisions that they've made.
Speaker 3:But then also, from my standpoint, the way I'm speaking, voicing my concern, one of which being, you know when we have started doing this our EAS housing department for the city their funding doesn't renew until July 1.
Speaker 3:So there are hundreds of people that are on their wait list that if we maybe would have timed this differently, it would have been a time where there would have been more money to then connect to the affordable housing that we do have, which we all know is limited, and that's an issue of its own. So, yeah, so I'm not against the ordinance. It's all about how we do it, it's about the timelines, and my role is to say that we have got to look at this as people and not a problem, and so when we can't say, like TRM, I can't house everybody, so that's one of our limitations. When we look at affordable housing, we don't have enough. When we look at a mental health crisis, when we look at all of these things right. There are things that I wish we could have just put in place. That would have made this a little more where we had options for people, because TPD has had a tough job, trm has had a tough job, social services have had a tough job, and the whole community.
Speaker 3:Yes, and those that are unsheltered, because they also are. You know, we've had several say like we're doing what you've asked us to do but there's still nowhere to go. And then there's the million dollar thing that I hear all the time. Well, the majority are choosing this and I can say are there a handful of people that are saying I'm not going to access anything? Yes, but out of 170 something people that we've asked, 11 said no. So there's just some things there that are difficult to try to navigate as we're doing these tough decisions together.
Speaker 2:So just kind of for the record, trm's position is not. It was not okay to have unsheltered camping and trash everywhere.
Speaker 3:No, or safety concerns, or you know, I mean, this is our community.
Speaker 2:Because some have interpreted that way. When you're saying, hey, let's do something different that you condone, or think it's OK, or leave them alone, and, major, you're right, there are people that believe that you know constitutional right and that we should let people live whatever they want to do, whatever they want to do, and I never quite figured out why they think that.
Speaker 5:But they do, yeah, yeah, somewhere. They thought the Eighth Amendment covered you public property anywhere you wanted to, right, right, I've always camped in like national parks. They charged me an unbelievable amount, yes.
Speaker 3:And you know, it's just one of those things I think. What I'm really trying to put out there is you really can, regardless if you are doing it from a stance of faith or just a stance of humanity. There is a balance and that's what I am so thankful for. People like Major Cross, captain Stewart, sergeant Rose because even Chief Deputy Chief has been helpful. There is a way that you can care for people and you can be compassionate and you can recognize that that could be your daughter, your son, your dad compassionate and you can recognize that that could be your daughter, your son, your dad. But then you can also have rules and we can have structure and we can use partnerships to get people connected so that there's options. It's just with the way that we've rolled this out, we're doing the best we can do, but it definitely could have been better, but not because of, in my opinion, tpd or anything like that. It's because we had a short timeframe to do some of this and they've done as incredible of a job as they could.
Speaker 2:Agreed, agreed. Major. Explain a little bit more. When we say there's been a ordinance banning public camping, it's not everywhere. Is that correct? In other words, there are just certain areas. At this point, some communities have said if they're on public property it's illegal, but it's not illegal everywhere here. Is that correct?
Speaker 5:Right and Barry, what our ordinance has set out is, aside from the specific like business districts that you can't camp in or within the doorway of a business, that you can't camp anywhere within a levy critical zone. And what that basically means is, like you know, we look at Topeka and it was like the 1950s we had a major flood and since then the Corps of Engineers have really upped their game on our levee system to keep that from happening again. And part of the reason that that's included, you know, is even the debris from a camp or trash, et cetera, could block basically a floodgate.
Speaker 5:And so if it's time to shut that floodgate and we can't get that floodgate closed, guess what? You can't just go jump in the water. At that point in time it's too late. So we've got to do what we can to protect those by not allowing the excess trash and debris in those levee-critical zones or the digging that sometimes goes on. I'm told, told from our folks, the Corps of Engineers, that sometimes even digging like a couple of feet down can cause an uneven issue for the terrain.
Speaker 2:There are people who have actually dug a cave into the side of a levee, and that's hard to believe. In Topeka, Kansas, that would happen. But we've found people that live inside a levee and unfortunately, that weakens the levee and the last thing we want is a major flood and sometimes and we've seen this in other areas where levees break, New Orleans being one to where it could flood the whole area, but in addition to that, it's not safe for the people who are camping. That's true, I was waiting for you to say that.
Speaker 5:I was like yeah, not only that, but if we're camping in that area like there's not always warning, you know, right, we may be dry here in Topeka, kansas, but a major like rain system in like Riley County, for example, would dump a ton of rainwater into the Kansas River in a very short period of time.
Speaker 2:There's been many times where police department, rescue mission, fire department, emergency management has had to go out early in the morning and try to save people's lives with all kinds of equipment, boats and whatever, because in the middle of the night that water came up fast and these people didn't know and next thing their stuff's gone and fortunately we have to my recollection nobody has perished that way.
Speaker 5:But they could have. Right, they could have, and I always worry in a situation like that, like the person who was residing there may want to jump in to save a pet or some critical item that's of value to them, and so they're willing to risk their life unnecessarily for that situation. So that's the live at critical zone part of it. Another part of it is you can't camp anywhere within 500 feet of the center line of any trail, and the ordinance defines trails as like any of the trails created by the city of Topeka and or Shawnee County and under the maintenance of the Shawnee County Parks Department. It specifies, like the Soldier Trail, landon Trail, shunga Trail. I think it also would include, although they're covered by the levee, the top of the levees are listed as a trail on the north sides of the levee. Throughout almost the whole Kansas River and Shawnee County, those areas are prohibited too.
Speaker 2:So those are the areas, at this point, that you just described in regards to public areas that are prohibited. We got one more.
Speaker 5:Okay, one more is sidewalks. You can't camp within 50 feet of a sidewalk inside the. We got one more. Okay, one more is sidewalks. You can't camp within 50 feet of a sidewalk inside the city limits of Topeka.
Speaker 2:And I think that we could probably spend time unpacking the why of all those, but I think that there's enough sense, especially with the levee one that you described, but there are some places where they're not within the 500 feet of the systems or trails or whatever, and so those are areas that people then, at this time, could then relocate to. Is that correct, correct, okay, is the city aware of where those are and was there, or is there an attempt to help people to know where they could go legally?
Speaker 5:You know, barry, the city didn't seek out to find those places. But you know, through like investing, I get calls and emails probably like three, four times a week hey, what about there's someone camping in this place? Can they camp there? I just got one this morning. I'm sure I'm from Henry McClure, a local real estate developer. Um, and the gentleman's camping basically what is like the middle. It's almost like a, like a median, but it's like the middle. It's almost like a median, but it's between three streets, so it doesn't count as a median, but it's a piece of property owned by the city near downtown, just outside the downtown zone, where you can't camp, and there was somebody there camping overnight and he was concerned. And so, through things like that, barry, where we're taking a look at like hey, major Cross, is this a place someone can lawfully camp? Like I look at everything, I pull up Google map, I measure distance it's 74 feet from any sidewalk. There's no flood control or levy that exists there, and it doesn't meet any of the other things.
Speaker 5:So by technicality I think they can camp there and that's kind of how we've come to know. You know a handful of places in the city of Topeka where people can camp lawfully.
Speaker 2:Is that created any particular concerns at this point by the citizens, when they didn't see homeless people in a certain area before? And, if so, how is that being addressed by law enforcement?
Speaker 5:Yeah, it has. You know, we fielded those concerns from business owners and residents, as well as elected officials, and the reality is like the best thing we can do is, since it's a lawful place to camp, we can't take any enforcement action. But one of the things we're encouraging is just like what we'd encourage in any neighborhood when you have a new neighbor, right Like figure out who they are, get to know them, you know, wave, say hello, you know, be as neighborly as you can while we help these people work through the situation they're in. That's left them unsheltered.
Speaker 2:So obviously, if somebody is living in a piece of ground somewhere and it's maybe legal from the ordinance standpoint, but they don't have running water, they don't have restroom facilities, they don't have a way to shower and those kind of things, what's code enforcement? Where does that play into this in regards to people having human waste in one of these areas?
Speaker 5:So what it comes down to is we have to evaluate whether or not it meets the sanitation sections that apply within what's called the International Property Maintenance Code. The current version the city of Topeka has adopted, I want to say it's 2012. I might be wrong, because they put out a new volume every three years and according to that there are some sanitation things. But it's a process just like everything else, Like it does.
Speaker 5:It's not like a show up, write a ticket for violating the international property maintenance code it's a little more complicated, and so we have to kind of work through the process of addressing those things and helping kind of gain compliance for the sanitation concerns. But you know, when those things are out there. You know, one of the things I'm so thankful for is we have things like the MAP program and we have some community centers that still exist where people can use the facility can walk to use the facility during the day, take a shower during the day those things you can walk to use the facility during the day, take a shower during the day, those things.
Speaker 2:So what are you hearing from people who are experiencing homelessness, that no longer can be where they were and some may have been there for months, if not years again, because for whatever reason, it wasn't addressed before now to the degree it is now? What's law enforcement hearing from them? I'm sure it's all over the board. And what steps have you taken? And again, you are a professional of helping people to navigate some really difficult feelings and those kinds of things. I've seen you in a de-escalator riot before or a potential riot.
Speaker 2:that really could have been bad, and I saw you and another officer just go full guns to help people to feel okay. So what's law enforcement talking about? Now? I know that the behavioral health unit, CIT, Sergeant Rose and those folks, but what about the whole department? How you're addressing this?
Speaker 5:Well, one of the things we did I think that's made a huge difference is we took a people first approach. You know it wasn't a let's go in and clear. You know three miles of the North Kansas Riverbank, you know, to get hundreds of people who have camped there for years lawfully out, you know, basically creating almost like a little mini refugee crisis, turning hundreds of people onto the street at a time with nowhere to go. We've taken it, you know, in pieces and through those pieces we've taken a process where we make sure that, like you know, part one of each piece is letting the people know hey, in about 30 days, I know you've camped here for a long time, but in about 30 days we're going to come in, remove the camps. It's going to become unlawful to camp here. So start thinking about what you want to do, about what you want to do.
Speaker 5:And then our officers work with you know, the various outreach teams, whether it be LaManda's team from TRM or the teams from Vallejo and some of the folks from EAS at the city, to reach out to these people a second time and say hey, look, we know that you're in this situation. Your current housing, current camp situation is going to change drastically. How can we help? Can we look for resources? Can we help you try to find somewhere to relocate to? And then we come in, almost like part three. We come in and say, okay, next week's the week, so like we are days away. How can we help? You know what? What resources do you need? You know, do you need somebody with a truck to come help you? Do you need us to reach out to family to see if we can get you closer to family? And then, finally, you know, the final piece is we have to come in and unfortunately we have to do enforcement before we can allow our heavy equipment in to clean the camps. Can't do that while people are living there, correct.
Speaker 2:So, lamanda, I know that you are very much involved in the outreach piece.
Speaker 2:You personally have been out to the camps ever since you first started here, even before you became the director. This is a very important piece of your assignment here and your ministry here and your heart for the unsheltered. But you also stay abreast of available resources in the community, so you understand what's going on out in the streets. You understand about the available resources. How close are we to having what we need, in your understanding, to take care of? Not only what has happened thus far, with people not being able to live where they lived before and potentially, where it's going to go and we're going to talk in numbers here in a minute but are we good, um, are we not good, uh, in regards to available resources? And if we're not, what does that mean to the people, in your opinion, who are being um dislocated?
Speaker 3:You know it's so hard because I don't I don't want to sound negative or send a negative message, but I think that there is a reality here that we have gaps.
Speaker 3:And so before I dive into the gaps, I mean there are incredible organizations businesses, nonprofits, social services, government doing great things Right and doing what we can do, and I see amazing things be done in our community all the time.
Speaker 3:But the bottom line is right now we're facing a housing crisis that is not just low, affordable housing crisis, meaning property values have gone up, property taxes have gone up, and so even at TRM, we're seeing people telling us because they are embarrassed to need to come through the food line, and they'll say I'm so sorry, we were once a donor, but now we need a food bag, and so that started. I think we started seeing some around COVID, but I'm telling you, the last two years we have really started to see a change. And so when you are going into a house that you know when you got it was $100,000, and you could afford that payment, and now it's valuing at 175 to 200,000. And so then your insurance is going up, your taxes are going up, people aren't able to keep up with that socioeconomic status, and so it's not just that our community doesn't have enough low affordable housing, it's the fact that there are people that were housed that can't afford, and so then they're backing up and needing to go into rentals.
Speaker 2:Going into something more affordable which makes less ability to have the people that have a lower income or no income have a place to go with your rapid rehousing program, or what we call homeless stabilization. Now, housing stabilization, it's hard to find homes for people even staying in Topeka Rescue Mission and you have the money for people even staying in Topeka. Rescue Mission and you have the money Correct.
Speaker 3:And that's what I say all the time. So often we can go to this well, it's a financial issue. Well, if we look at finances, we're always going to have an issue. Right, I mean, everything just needs money, okay. But right now, if we had all of the money in the world, if we did not invest that money in ways that, research wise, prove to make a difference, the money is not going to make a difference, we'd be spending money the wrong way, correct?
Speaker 3:So it's not only the answer if we said, okay, we've got hundreds upon hundreds upon thousands of affordable units, whatever. If we don't look at how that person is supposed to thrive, if they are low functioning, if they need mental health services, if they have never had to do a budget there's all these different things If there's not case management and and you know the buzzword right now, it kind of drives me nuts is wraparound services. Well, what are wraparound services really? Okay, and it's not just appointments and it's not just medication.
Speaker 2:It's hugs. That's what it is.
Speaker 3:Wrap that person up and hug them, but it really is that there is not someone doing life alone. And so, barry, sometimes like, let's be honest with each other, there are times where us three need wraparound services, whether it's, you know, financial, or we've experienced a death, or there's a family issue, and so if you don't have a village, it's not good, and so just giving someone a key can't, can't fix that, you know, but anyway. So we have great things in our community, but do we have gaps? We do, and I think there's this misconception too that poverty is the connection to homelessness.
Speaker 2:That's a big misconception and that's a huge and that's a huge Statistics it is Dispel that.
Speaker 3:Very much so, and there are a lot of places in our world right now, or especially in the United States, that have a higher poverty rate and per capita, but they don't have a homelessness issue.
Speaker 2:Detroit would be one of the lower homeless per capita but higher poverty rate.
Speaker 3:Yes, and so, anyways, I am on one hand, so proud of Topeka when you look at how we feed people, clothe people, see people differently, mentorship opportunities there are great things in there but then there are things that are just huge gaps. And to begin criminalizing, we are putting a bandaid on a concern instead of going to the source of the hurt. And that's my concern is, this ordinance could be a helpful thing in some circumstances, but because we as a community don't have our plans in place, we are essentially putting people on wait lists or poor Vallejo, I mean, it's a you know however long of a wait to get into their 28-day program.
Speaker 2:Big housing authority, Section 8, those can be a two-year wait list.
Speaker 3:Then you've got Cornerstone.
Speaker 3:They're trying to do their part and they're doing amazing things, but they've got a wait list. And so if I wish we would quit looking at immediate things that look like we did something, and let's really, let's use wisdom, let's use strategy. How are we going to increase development for our city? How are we going to incentivize developers to come? And how are we going to use dollars then to create services that are not just oh, come to an appointment and you're gone, those kinds of things, services that are not just oh, come to an appointment and you're gone, those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:And so, on one hand, this has been one of the biggest challenges of my career as an educator, and this to face something like this that, on one hand, is so not the answer, but then, on the other hand, there's so many people that I care about that are not just the unsheltered that are on the side of having to enforce, and I want to make sure that I'm caring for them and really being trustworthy and a partner and not just making them do hard things, because I care for our police, I care for our fire, I care for our government, despite what's out there.
Speaker 2:And the citizens who are adversely affected. Business owners.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have dear friends and so I think that's the biggest thing that I just want to plead is that this is going as good as it can, but it's not right, but that there are ways that we can find a balance in compassion and love and logistics and love and logistics Major.
Speaker 2:When we started the Topeka Rescue Mission Outreach Program about 14 and a half years ago, we were finding, at any given time, maybe 30 to 90 different people community-wide that were experiencing homelessness. Now that doesn't mean we found everybody. Numbers have increased greatly, and again not just in Topeka, kansas. We were talking with some folks in Linn County the other day 10,000 people and they've got a homeless problem Right. And again, not just in Topeka Kansas. We were talking with some folks in Linn County the other day 10,000 people and they've got a homeless problem and they don't have any resources there. And so what does at this point, the best that you understand how many people have been affected by having to move to either into services or go somewhere else or maybe somewhere else in the community. At this point, do we have an idea?
Speaker 5:You know we really don't have a great idea because we've come in with estimates for like each phase of this kind of North River Bank project and it seems like by the time it comes down to cleanup day, you know where we thought there were going to be 30 people.
Speaker 5:A lot of people have already, you know, heeded our warnings or heeded the resource warnings and either moved on or gone into programs, gone back to family. You know we've even had some outreach folks help people get as far away as like Atchison, kansas, back to some family members who they could house with. But we're seeing the numbers less. But it's hard to gauge because you know these. This isn't the kind of community where you know if you went down to the river bank tonight and handed out census forms, they're going to fill out the census forms and want to turn them back in, right. So we kind of have to relay on our outreach teams to get us those estimates and those numbers.
Speaker 5:You know, and even when we do, you know we do that annual point in time count where we even then even then, you know, Barry, we I don't feel like we get to everybody, because 20 years ago when I got into, you know, municipal law enforcement here in Topeka, there were homeless folks then, um, you know, but they were, they were hidden away, they were, they were, you know, kind of like back behind the businesses. You know, really, until there was a problem we didn't know they were there.
Speaker 2:But I certainly didn't see the evidence along riverways and those kinds of things and again, it's not unique to this community.
Speaker 2:Not at all and it's. I always wondered when it was going to happen here. I'd go to another place and I'd see why are they along the river Colorado Springs? Why are they all in the downtown area? You know, and part of that was policy, a hands-off approach. That was a reaction, because they had a hands-on approach to it and Civil Liberties came in and slapped a lawsuit on the Colorado Springs. You may recall when they came here with their hot team and I think they had that experience in 08, and we got them in here in 15 or something like that, and so it's a difficult thing to take care of.
Speaker 2:And to what you just said and totally understand, um, uh, we really don't know how many people, um, have been affected at this point, which then takes it to the next level. We don't know how many will be in the future. Right, so it's really kind of hard to plan for resources. Um't understand. But I think, lamanda, what you have done with your team here is you've attempted to understand. In certain ways, I think you're probably looking at some statistics there by going out and doing what Major Cross has talked about is trying to get information extracted from people, not a census form, but through relationships of people that trust the outreach folks um of asking them a number of questions and what I think you've done three of these studies at this point, at least two of them.
Speaker 3:What do you find? Yeah, so you know, with the point in time gaps that we had um. I even heard, you know just information, that the um equity access sheltering group with the city like if we could just have this information it would help us, and so that's kind of part of the reason we started it. So each survey has been a little different, just because after we did survey, one talked to a couple of people and they said, like, for instance, one of them that the city needed was well, do they have an income? Because that is one of the things that helps them bump up on the list or down, I don't remember how it goes. And so I said, well, that would have been a good question, but we didn't ask it. I'll put it on survey too.
Speaker 3:And so for those who are like data specialists, it would drive them nuts because our variables change. Because when we know that it could help the community in a way, we do change the survey. We know that it could help the community in a way, we do change the survey. So we did one survey last summer-ish, second survey in the fall, just did the spring one, and then we'll do a summer one, so we've done about unduplicated about 160 individuals, and so that is incredible. These are all unsheltered. So I just want to clarify not people staying in the shelters, these are truly people around 240 or so of those right.
Speaker 3:Every night? Yes, 40 on average. 40 to 50 are children, and so this last one we did, we did, you know, it was colder weather and stuff like that, so we had 42 of the individuals. And so here's just a couple of things we ask Are you born in Topeka? Do you have a substance abuse concern? Are you interested in any type of low barrier setting, tiny home villages? Would you need to bring a pet? Do you have income, so forth? And what's really been incredible on this is I've learned a lot. I mean, there's been stuff that I thought that I'm like oh no, that's not right, and so I love that it's really doing away with opinions, because there's a lot of them out there.
Speaker 3:And so for instance, out of these 42, 43% were born and raised in Topeka, and so far that's been the lowest number. Most of it is even higher than that right. So the stigma that's out there of they're not from here, they're transient, it's not accurate. And so then, when you look at the people who have been in Topeka, or that was surveyed, of the 42, we had the average years that they've been in Topeka. Guess what it was Average.
Speaker 2:I've heard the answer to this, but go ahead 23.
Speaker 3:Wow 23 years. So even if they weren't born and raised, the average of that is 23 years, and so it's been incredible to try to get data and we share this data. So I'm not sure why there's like this rumor circulating that we work in silos and that we don't share the information.
Speaker 2:This. Well, yeah, this is every community, and you know I'm working with some other communities now and they're having the same problem and if they're in Kansas Topeka's dumping arrow, they're homeless on us Topeka's saying the same thing about. Lawrence and you know, we've heard these wild rumors, and then people say is that true?
Speaker 3:And I go no, no, yeah Well, and I've. I've told people. I mean I have probably I haven't shared this survey three yet because they were putting it in a spreadsheet and stuff, but literally we just put our logo on it so that if somebody has questions when it gets circulated and there's no telling how many I've shared of survey one and survey two. So I've had individuals come to me, I've had schools come to me to ask, I've had groups and so what I'm sharing it can be out there. I mean I don't share names. When we asked of the 42, how many were interested in a low barrier type shelter, 83% said they would access it. When asking about some type of tiny home village, 80% said that they would access it. 50% have a substance abuse concern.
Speaker 2:45% have an income 45% have an income 45% and so this is one Okay, okay, go ahead. What do you say? Income? What are we talking about?
Speaker 3:Yes. So I was so proud that we had gotten information that Carrie and her team needed, right, and so then she goes okay, what's the income? And I'm like, oh friend, I found you again, and so I was like survey three, we're going to nail this. And so the majority of the income is SSI and SSDI.
Speaker 2:Which? Why isn't that enough?
Speaker 3:Has anybody heard how you can try to live off of that? You cannot, you cannot.
Speaker 2:Not in this housing market.
Speaker 3:No, you can't and can you believe. So we have it down here and I love their honesty. Okay, and so when we ask these questions, we ask it in such an unbiased way, but what's amazing is we get truthful answers back because of trust.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:And so four of the 42,. Their income is employment. They are full-time employed.
Speaker 2:People might be quite surprised when they go to certain businesses in our community. The people who might be working in their kitchen, who might be sacking your groceries, are living in a tent or in their car, and that shocks a lot of people.
Speaker 3:One said panhandling. One receives Indian-type benefits. One draws retirement, Barry, and is on the streets.
Speaker 2:And just to pause on that one, it's predicted that that particular population nationally is going to grow and grow and grow and grow because of the cost of everything we have in the retirement programs and plans. We're not big enough, so we have senior adults. It's going to cost a lot more to our communities due to a lot of issues, and probably health being the biggest one that if we don't get a handle on this now, it's going to be unaffordable. Sorry to interrupt you there, no, you're okay, and you know one having.
Speaker 3:so, out of the 19 that have the income, one said that they have a family member who tries to pay them for work that they do. We had one say hustling, and then we had one that said that they were too scared to say where their income came from. But the majority of those 19 that have income is SSI and SSDI, so that tells you the majority of them that have income. They also probably have a physical ailment, age concerns, needs, all of that, and they're on the streets.
Speaker 2:Major. How helpful is that kind of information to law enforcement? It's actually very helpful, barry.
Speaker 5:I mean you know we have to structure our outreach programs around what we know from the community and it's extremely important because you know one of the things we hear you know like a lot of them responded on that survey about like a tiny home village type situation, or you know we've had some banter around the campfire.
Speaker 5:We've talked about, you know, like a dorm dormitory style, because a lot of these people need these people who are unsheltered currently in our community. They're not going to be able. We can't just as Amanda said, we can't hand them a key and expect them to function, prepare their budget, pay their bills, not have their water get turned off, and so they're going to need that help of almost somebody who would be almost like a resident advisor in a college dorm, you know where, when the kid doesn't know how to keep up with college classes and fun on the weekends, you know can be that advisor to them.
Speaker 2:And I think that's a good way to describe it. And if someone goes to college and they go to the dorm and all that, it's not forever.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, it's not like we're just getting rid of them. It is an opportunity for stabilization, learning some skills, to then in what we call graduate from homelessness. And so we don't. Topeka Rescue Mission is kind of like that. It's dorms and it's education and training. It's not the lowest of low barrier, but it's full all the time and so obviously there's discussion on and some of the folks out here have said that they would be interested.
Speaker 5:And I just want people that you know that listen to hear that you know a lot of these people that are homeless. They're not choosing to be homeless. That's not a choice. You know. They're not intentionally homeless. But at the same time, if we were to just hand them a key or pay their rent at an apartment complex, I don't believe they would succeed.
Speaker 3:We're going to have other issues.
Speaker 5:Right, and so we have to come up with a system that helps those who need that, and maybe it's just somebody they can go to to ask you know, how do I do this, how do I do that? And at the same time, you know we talked about based on, like some of that survey data, the SSI and SSDI it doesn't go far enough to put yourself in a one bedroom apartment, buy groceries, pay the electric bill, pay the water bill, and so and then live a life where there's no sickness or issues or broken bones.
Speaker 5:Or repair a car or any of those things that can derail a budget and you know, perhaps you know kind of a modified communal situation is something that the Topeka-Shawnee County community needs in order to provide that access to some of these.
Speaker 2:You're in multiple roles, as we heard earlier. Your community engagement piece of this. What do you think the community at large, whether it's the private citizen, the NIAs, the NAs, the churches, the businesses maybe I already said that what do they need to know about this issue? Because everybody's got a dog in this fight? Yeah, Because people are living within our community. Some want this to go away, Some want to be very compassionate, and both ends of the spectrum what would you say is going to be some of the things that we need to help the community understand?
Speaker 5:You know, I was just at an NIA meeting Monday night and the topic came up and it was a person attending the meeting, a citizen from the neighborhood attending the meeting, and they said you know, I don't see any homeless in our specific neighborhood, but I know where a couple are and how can I help. You know, and Barry and LaManda, when I get hit with that question, it's kind of like, well, there's a lot of ways you can help and what I told them was I think the best resource you can be is to provide support to those organizations in our community already doing the work with that community.
Speaker 2:That is really well said.
Speaker 2:I think that and the research has bore that out as well is that rather than going and trying to start a new thing, look at what you already have and how can that be enhanced, and then there may be a need for a new thing.
Speaker 2:But there's some consultants on a national level who are going around the country saying be very careful, especially at the municipality level, when they get a problem they face, we've got to do something about it. Then they go try to start a new thing and it clashes with the thing that's already there, and so that's. I'm concerned about some decisions that may be made here locally to go try to do a new thing that doesn't work with the things that are already there. The mobile access partnership is a great partnership of agencies working together, including the city police department working with us on this, and if we can continue that particular momentum and find out where the gaps are, as LaManda has said, then try to fill those gaps, maybe with an existing system, create a new system, organization or whatever. Lamanda, this is a heavy topic every single day.
Speaker 2:Multiple times a day and obviously we hadn't had this talk when you accepted this assignment, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's a good thing. So I'm going to ask the major the same question what are you hoping will be our short-term and long-term goals here around the issue of unsheltered in our community? Short long term, short term right now we've got what we've got. Obviously, we need to take care of what we've got. There is ordinances, there are people that are having to leave. What do we do in the short term and what do we do in the long term?
Speaker 3:You know, I would say first of all, why are you not making him go first?
Speaker 2:Because he's got a gun.
Speaker 3:Got it, okay, got it. That makes sense, man, okay. Yeah, I'm not scary. So you know, I would say my short term would be my hope and my prayer daily, multiple times, is that no one gets hurt and I just leave that open ended. No one gets hurt and I just leave that open-ended.
Speaker 3:Hurt can take the form of many ways, whether it's the stress that some of us are under when we have to look at the people's faces and say, and we see the desperation, or we see them in the middle of their addiction, and it's a woman and we're trying to help her get clothed, or whatever the case may be. I know that hurt can be physical. You know, sergeant Rose and I have been in some things where people are hurt and when they're not functioning out of a balanced brain and we're kind of pushing them into more traumatic stress. That can be an issue. And so, short term, I just want everybody as safe as possible, given the situation, and I also know that beautiful things can come out of messes, and I also know that beautiful things can come out of messes, and so I do know that there's a lot of truth coming out right now in the short term of really seeing people's characters and who they are and who's really walking the walk and talking the talk and who's going to have your back, truly not just when you're on the mountaintops. And I feel like you can just name people from businesses to organizations, to government, to TPD, to nonprofits, where we're in this trench together. So even when it's no longer political or it's no longer popular, we're just going to have formed relationships that we're going to. Nothing's going to be able to stop us. We want to take care of our community. So, short term, I'm just thankful and I want those trustworthy partnerships and friendships to continue to foster longterm.
Speaker 3:I would have a whole long list but for the sake of the podcast, I will say I just hope we get it right, and right now we're not. We are trying to as much as possible, but it's not right by what TPD is having to face. It's not right by whether we're talking encampments or ordinances like that. It's just brokenness, right, amr, trying to get to people fire having to do the stuff they're doing.
Speaker 3:Our team who have built relationships with these people and you know their story, you know they're on there because they accidentally had a car accident and it killed all their family members in there and they turned to alcohol. Our team then gets to know that and then has to turn around and say go away from all resources. Right, it's hard and so I don't have all the answers. We have ideas and I know, collectively, there are just some incredible people that are balanced on this topic and I don't know when or how, but I just want us to get it right on behalf of unsheltered, but also just on behalf of a lot of people who come to work every day and do amazing things.
Speaker 2:Well said, major. We have a little time to think about this. What do you hope to see in the short term, and then eventually the long term, with this particular issue for our community?
Speaker 5:Well, I think my short-term hope extends to kind of midterm too, and that's that you know the Topeka community continue to exercise the patience and the compassion that they have as we set out to enforce the law that's on the books in a manner that you know doesn't create a bigger crisis and still takes people into account.
Speaker 5:I mean, you know we continue to take people first. I know, you know I've had a lot of people upset, you know, reaching out to me like you know, why can't this get done faster? And it's really I just look at them and say we have to make sure we don't create a bigger crisis. We don't solve one problem by creating a hundred new problems and so by taking our time, patience, you know, working slowly and deliberately with the community partnerships that we've built here in Topeka. Regarding the unsheltered community, I think that's my short-term goal is that we just continue to have that support to work at that pace, because you know it's a pace that it's sustainable. Progress is happening. It's just not happening in the most harmful manner that it could happen if that makes sense no hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And then, yeah, they really tie together, LaNanda, I mean one on top of the other there. And then, you know, when I look at long-term goals, Barry, on this process, I don't think it's realistic to say we're ever going to reach a point where, like unsheltered homeless communities aren't a thing in Topeka, Shawnee County. We're a big community with, you know, a lot of historical challenges that we have to work through and get through that have put us in some of these situations with mental health and health care, et cetera, that have put us in some of these situations with mental health and health care etc.
Speaker 5:And I think the long-term goal I'd like to see would be that we have resources and options that fit the need of those who are unsheltered. And Amanda went through the survey, three results and I mean you can hear, you know just as she reads through, that I mean people are homeless for a lot of different reasons right. Like there's not any one thing you can say. You can't just say addiction. You can't just say mental health.
Speaker 5:You can't say unemployment right, because people with and without those challenges, are unsheltered. Currently. We'd love to have one size fits all Right Not work, but I think what we you know, the long-term goal would be that we can see in our community resources available that fit all the different needs of our unsheltered community.
Speaker 2:Thank you both very much. This is one of the nation's most complicated issues. Has been for a long time, but it's risen to that level that we've realized that we haven't got it right. And so what do we do?
Speaker 3:Oh, you're not getting out of that.
Speaker 2:What's your answer?
Speaker 5:Don't get to say no, we're not getting it right.
Speaker 3:Major Cross and I are going to hang up on you.
Speaker 5:Let's be fair, though there's not like a gold star standard to look at, and so let's do what they did, because nobody's got that answer.
Speaker 2:That's the greatest point is that nationally we haven't got this right, and so what does right look like? I think what you all have unpacked. You've said let's try to avoid hurting, let's get accurate information out there. I wrote down two words from what you said, lamanda, about coming together and being together. We'd like to be unified, but we never will be. But we can be in harmony. We can have different people doing them. We have harmony here between the two of you. Right, you're not a law enforcement officer and you don't run a rescue mission and so, but you can be in harmony. People first, you know we can either look at this as a problem or people that have problems Major. You talked about the compassion, the patience, your hope that it stays with that within the community and that we find and discover what those resources are. So the goal is to admit we don't have it right yet. Now we'll say there's a lot of people that get helped in our community.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely Get helped. A lot of people get helped, whether it's through Topeka Rescue Mission or different agencies that we have our education system. Topeka Police Department helps people. They really do.
Speaker 3:They protect the city Multiple times a day.
Speaker 2:All the time you know to keep us. Yeah, things are tough in Topeka as well as the rest of the country, but we have the opportunity, we can take this issue and we can work together in harmony to say let's do the very best we can to get it right. Will we solve it? No. Will we ever end it? No. But, as it's been said, if it occurs, it can be rare and it can be brief and not like we see it today. Right.
Speaker 2:So, Major Mycross, thank you for all you do with your business card it's probably eight and a half by 11. And thank you for just being just a great communicator, advocate for Topeka Police Department, our community and LaManda, thank you for what you're doing and your openness to say y'all come and let's be a part of this. So thank you both, Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for listening to our community, our mission and let's be a part of this.
Speaker 3:So thank you both Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for listening to our community, our mission, a podcast the Topeka Rescue Mission. If you would like more information about the Topeka Rescue Mission, you can go to trmonlineorg. That's trmonlineorg. Thank you for listening to this very important podcast on Thursday, april 18th of 2024.